If decor is your porn, this is your blog.
HERE and HERE.Discuss.Image from The Find: The Housing Works Book of Decorating with Thrift Shop Treasures, Flea Market Objects, and Vintage Details
I noticed Vanessa's first post about this the other day, and was a bit confused because as some one mentioned in the comments to her first post, unless you have trademarked the word e-decorating she doesn't have a real case. She wasn't very specific.HOWEVER now that I have seen that three of those "e-decorating" services copy verbatim her wording and description of the service including how it all works. Absurd! Good Lord, I know there is more than one company to have an online decor service, but can't they write their own copy and maybe mix up how it all works so they have a service that sets them apart?Vanessa will beat all of this in the end because, let's be honest, her style and taste is wonderful, but I can understand why she is so upset.
I questioned the part about the term "e-decorating" because I've heard it before and she doesn't have it trademarked. However, the content from her "how it works" part of the site being copied exactly or nearly exactly is certainly legal action worthy. Best of luck to her.
Agree with the others. I have heard e-decorating for some time from many sources. But the copy written is a blatant, word for word, well, COPY, of hers and that is lazy and, frankly, stupid.
Agree with all above posts as well. "E-decorating" term is a gray area, but wow - some of those sites literally did a copy & paste job with Vanessa's descriptions! That's bad. And a major turn-off from those sites, too.
That's ridiculous that people would rip her off like that. There's no excuse for plagiarism.BUT, I don't think she has much of a case for trade-marking the term "eDecorating." I don't remember ever reading her blog before your post here, and I've been using the term "eDecorating" on my blog for a year or so. Unfortunately for her, I think it is one of those phrases that everyone uses and will continue to use as their own. It just the most logical term for the service.
I agree with the others on the "e-decorating" bit. If not trademarked, not much she can do about the term, any search will show it popping up quite often. As for her info being copied verbatim, yep, I'd be pissed. But it happens more and more out here on the intertube. I think there are two sets of people that do it... 1. blatant rip off artists too lazy to come up with their own verbiage/content....and 2. people who seriously are ignorant to these kinds of things and don't even think about it let alone wonder if it would be right or wrong. Happens all the time and seems like the only thing you can really do anymore is have the header/main page of your website read "DO NOT COPY MY SHIT BITCHES." Sad, but all too true anymore, the intertube is an un-managed and highly un-manageable playground. I'm starting to think a career in copyright law would've been a smart move. :)
your right!!! http://tori-macgregorscottage.blogspot.com/
yes the description is the same and its wrong to copy paste exact writing (we learn this in middle school?) from another source. but i think she is off her rocker saying that you cant use the word e-decorating. i am going to bet everyone that this word will be in the dictionary within the next few years. are you kidding? E in front of anything is that thing over the internet. Where i come from you cant say your an Interior Designer without the degree and NCIDQ licensing. lets start there.
I dunno. I'm a bit torn about this- it's obviously unacceptable for anyone to plagiarize her written content, but I bristle a bit at the way she's handling the situation. I might have made an attempt to contact these other businesses before I trashed them on my blog. Those who copied directly had it coming, but those who merely used similar terminology... hmmm. I'm just not sure about the diva attitude (but hell, who am I to talk!)I just hope she doesn't think she has a trademark on the online design process as a whole- that's the way of the future. Instead of trying to be the "only," she just needs to be the "best." There's a lotta competition out there, and there is not a universal licensing requirement for designers- so that's not a fair attack.Good luck to her though- I've had a very similar thing happen to me, and I know how angry I was...
I agree with what everyone has said about the lack of trademark and copied copy. E-/eDecorating is a general term, a type of decorating service, and there's not much than can be done. The only thing I can think of is that she purchase the domain name E-Decorating, but I hope she instead comes up with an alternate, less-flat name for her service.
As a PS to my comment two seconds ago:Damn. Girl has every right to be a diva- she's good.That's all.
I don't think Turquoise has cornered the market on e-anything. The ubiquity alone would make it a tough fight to win. The fact that numerous websites stole her content is a totally different issue. From a legal perspective plagiarism is complicated and thus rarely a slam dunk. Garden Lust Journal
Betsy Burnham....the first and the best.
It's not what's written on your site, its the talent one brings to the table...I've seen this same concept on a friends Feng Shui Interior Design site in Miami, she's been offering this type of service for well over ten years. e-service is nothing new, I say go out and do good work.
I can't argue the legal standing she has, but I have to say that it is unprofessional of those other sites to copy and paste. However, I bet those sites are getting tons of traffic due to her post...is that what she wanted? Hopefully, all that traffic is negative.
Hmm, it's a tricky one, because once you put it out there and you put a shingle on your blog saying "All Welcome", you never know what will blow in, and what they might take when they leave. However, as a blogger myself I know the time and trouble it takes to formulate ideas and thoughts. It's not right for someone to just steal it, but in the end, if they can't come up with the goods for their website, they won't be able to do so in reality either.
Three of the four companies she's complaining about have already dropped the term "e-decorating." The first one, Design Divas, does seem to have lifted few sentences from the Turquoise website.
Oops, change "a few sentences" to "most of a page."Design Diva Interiors = Shameless Plagiarists, Inc.
The same thing happened to me when I offered a Cleveland steaming service in the M4M section of Craigslist. Soon, every other personal trainer on Atkins was advertising the same exact service.The customer pool was too small...OK, I admit this added nothing.
Is a "Cleveland Steam" a euphemism?
I can relateHave had quite a few of my jewellery designs ripped offand I know from experience that litigating copyright and plaigarist issues is costly in time and moneySatisfy yourself with the knowledge that these no-talent copyists will ultimately be exposedas artless imposters, whilst you will have a wellspring of creativity to propel you to great places in your career.
Okay, it's not directly on-point, but... I just looked at the Torquoise site--specifically, her decorating portfolio. It's unoriginal work. A ton of Hollywood Regency/Jonathan Adler-type clichés, Lulu "Chant" fabric, Saarinen tables, sunburst mirrors, lacquered furniture, Chinese Chippendale chairs, torquoise this, chocolate brown that, etc., etc.
e-decorating seems to be a rather generic term for the online decorating industry, and I know Turquoise cannot claim it if she had not already trademarked or copyrighted the phrase and concept. The worded content on one of the competing sites does seem to be lifted word for word and she has every right to go after that, but as for the others, not so much. I would think that some of the things that all of the e-decorating providers promote would be standard industry practices, so some things would have similar content. The other person featured in the Sunset article uses the term but seems to approach it in an individual style, and her website has different wording and content. To me Turquoise just comes across as bitchy and litigious. (and she needs to work on her grammar and sentence structure--if you are running an online business or writing/blogging about ANYTHING, your ability to communicate will be showcased for better or worse....)
What about the wisdom of airing this in public, on her blog?PRO: It might warn other potential plagiarists off.CON: It could turn off potential clients. (I have to admit, it does me.)
couple things: in california, you have to be lisenced to call yourself an interior designer. is ms. high & mighty turqouise lisenced? second: girl, correct your grammer for gods sake! i'm betting that a college degree and NCIDQ certification would do that in a jiffy. just sayin'....and lastly, no one, not even al gore who invented the internets, can claim to have coined the term e-design. it's ridiculous to even say that. maybe she's not aware of anyone else using it before her/until now, but i'm pretty sure i've seen it out there and didn't think anything of it. i wonder if the person who coined the term 'e-commerce' is suing everyone who uses that on their sites? hmmm...stealing others content is really, really bad, she has a point there. however it would have been MUCH more classy to contact those websites directly, rather than drag her issues out into the street. get a trademark if you want to be protected, otherwise you just never know what can happen!
i agree with anonymous #2. betsy burnham, instant space - the FIRST and the best.
Hmm, this woman thinks she has invented asking someone advice oveer the internet?? The hubris!
I'm one of the designers in Sunset's e-decorating article and I'm also one of the designers that Vanessa is accusing. It's really unfortunate that she has included me as someone who has stolen her content, which I clearly have not. I originally called my online services eDesign, but changed it to be consistent with the term used in the article. There is no trademark on it, and it would not make sense to do. I think it's nice for those of us offering e-decorating to have a universal term that the public can become familiar with.It saddens me that she's decided that it's okay to try to ruin my reputation when I've done nothing to provoke her. On the plus side, I'm getting an astonishing number of visitors on my website, thanks to the link on her blog :-).
I'm scratching my head here as to what some of these blogs have done to incur the wrath of this egocentric woman. Granted, it is pretty contemptible to lift copy ad verbatim and present it as an original piece but unfortunately this is commonplace in all print media. Most annoying, but there it is. Get on with doing a good job where it matters and you will become original and respected. This woman certainly has no rights to the term 'E-Decorating', are you joking me?? The concept is not hers, anymore than it is anyone elses. It is a generic and commonly used device to use the letter E in front of ALL things electronic, get over yourself.
One thing I've found that really puts off copying and pasting is to put your text in an image with a plain background. Next, put a "lock" on your image so it can't be copied. This puts off lazy people who are the ones who copy.Try this site, for example. http://copy-not.com/(First one I found. There are many others.)
Only "Design Diva Interiors" stole sentences off of her website. She's gone way overboard.
We featured one of the blogs (Space Lift Style) last fall for this specific service. Lisa (the blog owner) has done a great job of creating her own content, designing a great website, and coming up with her own take on a very brilliant but commonly used idea (This Young House is just one of many who offer this service). Lisa was also featured in the same magazine article. Now the hard work she has put into her content and blog is being smeared all over the internet. That is not fair.
Just a follow up, if she accuses someone of stealing her work when they didn't, it's slander.
I think the first company she posted was a total ripoff. But the Space Lift site was pretty different with the way she laid everything out and described her service, though the idea was the same. I think she should take off the Space Lift as a ripoff.
Did anyone take a look at spacelifts info sheet? Looks pretty similar to turquoise. This person used the E-decorating phrase repeatedly and then pulled the same content and then changed a couple words around. Just seems a little questionable to me. The others sites that were mentioned just pulled content directly from turquosies site. There is no doubt about that.
I did look at the info sheet. It isn't the same.
it's hard to get riled up over "ripoff artists" when every room that Turquoise has in her portfolio looks like it was directly ripped off of Domino magazine. Would she be able to make any design decision if Jonathon Adler, Ruthie Sommers, or Kelly Wearstler hadn't already made it for her? She rully, rully reminds me of Kelly from Real Housewives of NYC.
It just sounded like a massive whinge to me. Very childish, the whole thing. From the copying to the way it was handled by her.
She's angry that the other sites used her web FAQs as a template, yes? I feel badly for her frustration but it seems a waste of time and legal fees to go after copiers for that. A firmly worded "please don't make me take this to court" letter might have nipped much of this in the bud.
Anon 7:41 AM--You totally ripped off the content of MY post (Anon 9:33 PM)! I will sue you into next week!(Kidding.)She reminds me of a realtor, getting all hissy about another realtor "stealing" her buyer.I would have fired off an email to the Design Diva people, or had a lawyer do it, pointing out the plagiarism and demanding it be removed. That would have been sufficient.The e-decoration "theft" argument will never stand up in court.
you're = you areyour = second person possessive (you own, you have)grammar not grammer
I'm an interior designer (degree and all that business) and when I just started out I worked for a woman and was helping her with her website. She had literally taken text from another designer's website and wanted to use it as her own. I had to discuss with her (a 50 year old woman) that she should write her own text, that she was copying.Some people just don't get that copying is bad (designers do it all the time, just look at the trends in design, many designs start to look alike after a while). But I think if the woman having problems had emailed the owners of the sites in question or called them it would have been more professional to discuss it with them first. Perhaps they would have just changed their information and learned their lesson.
I'd be afraid to hire someone with that hair-trigger temper and bad impulse control.
I agree that if Turquoise is any good she'll rise above the fracas. Just do your thing girl and if you've got the stuff it'll show. Enough already!!!!! Except for my comment of course.Garden Lust Journal
A Google search on "e-decorating" turned up 3,880,000 hits.Get suing, Vanessa!
She took the accusatory entries down.
Gray area much?Apart from the verbatim cutting and pasting which is certainly an egregious offence, designers like Betsey Burnham have been offering e-design and online consulting for quite some time. In fact, it appears to be the new frontier of decorating. I guess designers will have to keep their eyes peeled until copyright laws stiffen.
Interior decorating needs to go back to hand-penned suggestions, borne by servants on horseback.
i'm going in business and trademarkng "rejiggering your shit for cheap-like" who's coming with me?
Vanessa needs to check her shit. Her L.A. e-go can't fit through the door people. Total wanna-be.
dude - that bitch is crazy.
Well, the link is dead. So it looks like I've missed out on all the fun. A few thoughts:1.) Vanessa is a relentless self promoter. Nobody works more tirelessly to get her mug plastered around town and on the web. This is what counts in our society. Market yourself. Market your "brand." She does that very well.2.) Everything she does is derivative. 3.) She sure is cute as a button, though. In fact, I'd call her e-licious!
Disappointed that you took the post down. Glad you put it back up. It's an important issue worthy of discussion!! That's the plucky Decorno that I've come to know. My last post was an opinion piece regarding this issue. Thanks again for keeping it up.Garden Lust Journal
By focusing on the term e-decorating, we're missing the point here. The real issue is that an entire page of copy on DeVargas' Web site was blatantly plagiarized by Design Diva. Not a paragraph or two, but her entire e-decorating page... verbatim. Additionally, her questionnaire was lifted verbatim (they didn't even bother to change fonts) by three design firms. This is purely unacceptable and anyone who takes personal potshots at DeVargas re: this issue should have their head examined. This is about copyright infringement and the degradation of ethics in our industry. If I were DeVargas I'd be suing these designers. This is despicable.
@Lisa Ellis - I agree, and she should pursue legal action against the blogs who did copy. But that doesn't give her the right (morally or legally) to slander another designer who didn't copy her work. I'm glad the posts were removed.
Lisa,You're right. V. should have stated her objection as clearly and specifically as you did here.I still think it should have been handled via private correspondence with the plagiarists, rather than blog posting. That was self-destructive.
E-GO. vanessa, trademark that while you're at it, sister. i'm sure Sunset is thrilled that they featured her now that she's revealed herself to be the inventor of the term e-Design, and i'm also sure they mentioned to her while researching the article that other designers were doing e-Design, and oh my gosh, it wouldn't be all about her! she's reeeeaaaaching if she thinks she can sue for that. the copy of her page though, that's BAD and those bitches should be ashamed of their copying ways. ashamed!
Just wanted to clarify some misinformation posted by Alexis. The state of California requires neither licensing nor education for interior designers. The state also does not have a practice or title act. Currently, anyone can claim the title of interior designer. The NCIDQ exam is a voluntary exam and tests for issues commonly associated with commercial interior design.(hotels, retail, offices, hospitality and the like).
But if you're doing e-decorating, you're working for clients in other states, with different licensing requirements.So the question is: Where does the "decorating" take place: At the e-decorator's office, or in the client's home? A good lawyer could argue it either way. So even if Calif. requires no license, the client might be in a state that does require one, and if the gets advice there (through his computer) from a non-licensed decorator...
That's when you get into the issue of an interior decorator vs. an interior designer. Typically, an interior decorator does surface decoration and does not have degree. An interior designer, on the other hand, has a degree, is highly trained and can pursue testing and certification. This is not necessary to be called a decorator. But that's not to say it's bad to be called a decorator because there are some very talented people out there!While we're on the subject, one thing that I found particularly upsetting (and slanderous) about Vanessa's comments on her blog was that she put me in a group which she labeled "not designers but so-called decorating companies looking to make money". I have a bachelor's degree in interior design and 21 years of experience in commercial and residential interior design. I've worked for top architectural firms in NYC and with very high-profile clients. I'll leave it at that because I refuse to get catty.For the record, after I was alerted to Vanessa's blog post, I responded to her with a very courteous and professional letter. I have not received a reply. I was honestly hoping that we could handle this in a professional manner and that she might offer and apology for her false accusations.
oh no, not the dreaded designer v. decorator argument...joni has already covered the NCIDQ mafia quite extensively.
yeah I've covered it and I'm back to cover it again: Space Lift- I feel your pain, totally on your side of this, laughing at the ownership of e-decorating. WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!! but - listen to what you said:"But that's not to say it's bad to be called a decorator because there are some very talented people out there!"oh pluuuzzeeeee - shall I list the "very talented people out there!" who aren't "designers?"Albert HadlelyMario BuattaJohn SalidinoCharlotte MossBunny WilliamsSuzanne RheinsteinKelly WearstlerSuzanne KaslerAlessandra BrancaDan Carithersshall I name more - or is this enough of some "very talented people out there"to make a point?God, when will ASID understand that the most UNTALENTED people are the licensed ones? I'll ask what I always ask - show me the covers of any national magazine done by an ASID member. Show me more than one, please. Anyone?Oh and btw TEXANS - you can now call yourselves DESIGNERS again without being fined thousands of dollars! YES!!!!!!!!! Our crazy governor who wants Texas to leave the US (it's true) signed it into law - "decorators" can now call themselves what they are - designers. Thank you Rick.
Joni,First: Lay off the "!!!!!!!!!" They make you look unstable.Second: No offense, but people do need to have some way of knowing that you are not qualified to make or recommend structural changes to a property: Moving a wall, a door, an entryway, a window; changing a staircase, a bearing beam, etc., etc. And there probably are people out there using the term "designer" who are not qualified to make such judgments or changes, but do so anyway."Plumber" has a meaning. "Electrician" has a meaning. These meanings are in part defined by governments. States do not let people label themselves "plumbers" or "electricians" unless they have the necessary state-defined training, knowledge, and competence. Why should the word "designer" NOT have equally clear meaning? I've read your blog. I know what you do. You pick fabric and furniture and lamps and rugs and paint colors; you rearrange things and edit things. All noble pursuits. But they fall under the classification of "decorating." You are not reconfiguring basic systems or spaces. You are not designing. You should get over your shame over the term "decorating." You need to study your decorating history. Sister Parish never called herself a "designer." Neither did Dorothy Draper, or Elsie de Wolfe, or Nancy Lancaster. You could use a lesson in the history of the term "decorator." It's NOT shameful. Ask Aesthete's Lament. You'll agree he knows more than you do (and most of us do) about the history of interiors, and he'll explain that the gradual substitution of the term "designer" for "decorator is...lamentable.No, I'm not a member of the ASID or have any interest in it. But I don't think what you do is design. I think what you do is decorate.
And please don't tell us that there are no cases of any injuries or structural failures attributed to non-ASID designers. NO ONE has ever gone through every single state government's records looking for such statistics. No one.
Cote de Texas - I apologize if you interpreted my words the wrong way. I am merely trying to give an answer to someone that asked. In regards to ASID, I'm not currently a member, but was in the past and it's a very good organization. I've done both interior decorating and interior design and there is, technically, a difference. As a decorator I'm choosing furniture, fabrics, paint colors and rearranging furniture. As a designer, I'm space planning and programming 3 stories of an office building, drawing a set of construction drawings, making sure the design meets building, fire and handicapped codes and measuring lumens. I don't think a lot of people know what you learn when you get a degree in interior design. When I was going to school people didn't understand why I was bothering because they thought I was learning how to pick out pretty colors (that was a tiny part of it). They didn't realize that it's very similar to studying architecture. My degree was necessary when I was a commercial interior designer. I think what happens is that many people aren't as familiar with commercial design and so they don't understand why designers should be licensed or have specific qualifications. I'm not saying that one is better than the other (I actually love decorating and it's the bulk of my business now), I'm just saying that they're different. I hope this is an okay analogy, but a painter can make a house look absolutely beautiful, but he probably wouldn't be able to design and build the house. You would hire a licensed architect for that.If you're trying to find national magazines with covers by ASID members you can look at Interior Design and Architectural Digest to name a couple. Incidentally, John Saladino has a degree in architecture from Yale, Albert Hadley has degree from Parsons School of Design and Mario Buatta studied at Cooper Union and Parsons School of Design. They are all ASID members.
Michael Taylor belonged to ASID.
Joni,These decorators are all in ASID:--Barbara Barry--Benjamin Noriega-Ortiz--Mariette Himes Gomez--Jamie Drake--Thad Hayes
ASID defenders are tiresome.
Warning: More ASID drivel - don't read it if you aren't interested, ok? It's mind numbing I know.First off - Style Lift - I hope you get that letter of apology from Turquoise, you deserve one - big time. Seriously. And this is not personal either. ok? It's just my opinion and I'm sure a dozen anons will say that really doesn't mean much at all. so here goes:ASID is driving a nail in their own coffin with their relentless push for legislation. They have been losing in state after state. Their members are leaving in droves. In truth, they represent such a small percentage of the interior designers/decorators in the US - it's amazing how little their numbers are. Yet they want to speak for all of us. Who elected them? I recognize that commercial design is a business and one that does take a certain level of expertise. Hiring a competent ID for commercial work was never an issue before. Put your resume and portfolio out there and let it be judged. No one would hire me to design a hospital - I'm not qualified. If the state wants to regulate commerical I.D. - let them come up with something reasonable. Six years of schooling is not reasonable imo. Sorry, it just isn't. No way. It's just not that complicated - though ASID wants you to think it is. Interior design is not architecture, though ASID is pushing themselves into that field - so much so that the architects have turned against ASID - another reason why they are losing the fight. Plans still have to be signed off by an architect or an engineer and that's how it should be. ASID wants that ability too. They want too much, they want it all, they are unreasonable. And it is costing them. What they have done in Florida is criminal. They go after people selling furniture in stores, people with the word designer on a business card, or on an ad over which they had no control, or in a magazine article! They even fined the designer who invented hospitality design! There has never been a safety issue with "unlicensed" I.Ds, never - and to the person who said no one has ever looked hard enough for one - believe me, ASID has been looking for years for a case to cite - the LV fire is the only one they have and it is flawed and they know it. They need a new one, a real one, badly. True interior design is an art, and it takes a talent, and you can't teach talent. You can teach all around talent, you can teach codes and signage and rubs but you can't teach talent. You either have it or you don't. Charlotte Moss sums it up perfectly - she can't draw and couldn't go to design school because of this. Yet, who is to say she is not an interior designer? ASID. She'd be f***ed if she lived in Florida, that's for sure.ASID has overreached. To require an interior designer to go to school for four years, intern for two more years ONLY with an approved designer, then take a test that many people fail and have to take over and over again - it's design, its not rocket science. But they have tried to make it that. That's why they are losing in the state legislatures now. When no one knew what was going on, they came in and did their work. Once the light was turned on - they started losing. Your degree is worth something. It will open a lot more doors for you than me, who didn't bother to finish after 4 years. If I had wanted to design hospitals and hotels maybe I would have finished. I just didn't see the need in order to do residential work. I never have - not once since. And btw, I don't call myself a designer, I do call myself a decorator. I honestly don't know if John S. is a member of ASID, but the truth is - he and most of the older people did not do what ASID requires of its younger people to do now. Most, if not all of the older ones were grandfathered in without finishing any of the new strict requirements. I just wonder if ASID has their way - how many really talented people will not be allowed to work in the field in the future? Is that what we really want? I can't tell you how ugly the comments are that people leave on my blog - students mostly - snide comments about IDs who aren't ASID. It's like they are angry because people who didn't go to school can do what they do and better. This one student left a comment the other day about Saladino - like he was some schmaltzy decorator and this student was so much better because she knows codes. It makes you laugh. Judging by what I see - I would put the talent of people who aren't ASID against those who are any day. I'm sorry, I just would. OK, I'm done. Your turn. or just truce?
Cote de Texas - Thanks very much. I really do appreciate that.Honestly, since I stopped working for commercial firms in 2000 I haven't kept up with legislation or ASID so much. I do agree that the talent to decorate or design is something you either have or you don't and that's why what I learned in school was mainly technical. I've also found commercial and residential design to be quite different and I do see your point with that. I'm not sure what the answer is. I really do understand both sides, and after working so long in commercial design I completely understand the need for schooling, licensing, etc. in that field. Hopefully, we can all try to respect, support and learn from each other as a community.
The links seem to have been taken down.
wow!Well, I will agree with whoever said that Turquoise is a great self-promoter...That being said, she should have handled this more professionally. It doesn't reflect very well on her.And just to back up Joni, as somebody who has worked in showrooms for over 10 years, and who also got her Interior Design degree (but chose not to use it...yet) - it makes not a lick of difference to be "registered" or not. Honestly, some of the most scatterbrained and unoriginal "designers" are ASID. And they promote that aspect loudly. And the older ones, like David Corley or Joseph Minton - they were grandfathered into the organization. Most people in residential design are hired to decorate. If you are doing any remodeling work or structural work, most people hire an architect too.
What about all the bloggers (thankfully, not you, decorno!) who shamelessly pull images from books and magazines' and designers' web sites without crediting them? That's a form of plagiarism. and copyright infringement. yet nobody is up in arms over that, including some of the folks complaining here who regularly do it on their own blogs.
Where'd those posts on the Turquoise blog go to??
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